Katja Rogers is a Computer Science PhD student from the Institute of Media Informatics at Ulm University, Germany. As a visiting researcher at the University of Waterloo, her project focused on the effects of audio on player experience in a VR horror game. Her previous projects involved topics such as NPC design, evolutionary algorithms, persuasive and pervasive games, as well as augmented reality.
Justin: Hi, I’m Justin Carpenter with First Person Scholar, section head of book reviews and interviews and I’m here with—
Katja: Katja Rogers, hi. I’m a visiting researcher from Germany.
J: So can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
K: I’m a visiting researcher from Germany. I’m a PhD student in my 3rd year at this point, although the structure of that is a bit different in Germany. So we have a little bit longer time in the PhD because we do a lot of teaching on the side. We supervise students rather than the professors — they don’t tend to do that as much.
J: Oh, that’s super interesting. I actually didn’t know that.
K: Yeah, it’s a very hierarchical system over there so the professors take care of the research and the grants and that sort of thing and the PhD students do a lot of the teaching.
J: Wow, I wish it worked that way here. I love teaching.
K: It has upsides and downsides, I guess.
J: I mean, it’s way more work for the PhD students because you have to do a thesis still, right?
K: Oh yeah.
J: How long is your thesis supposed to be?
K: Well, I was told no more than 400 pages (laughs).
J: Oh good.
K: But only because the last people who submitted it did 400 plus and my supervisor said he doesn’t want to read that much next time.
J: That just strikes me as discourteous or something. 400 pages for your committee to read is quite a lot, it seems like a lot.
So, what are your research interests?
K: So I’m in games and I’m mostly interested in audio in games at the moment, although I do tend to do all sorts of projects. So I’ve also done some projects on NPC design, for example, and how to include adaptivity in games as well. Some procedural content generation, evolutionary algorithms, that kind of thing. But my main focus for my thesis is going to be audio in games.
J: Okay. A few questions there. First, what got you interested in games?
K: So I’ve always played games, but I didn’t actually consider myself a gamer for a long time, because I was never allowed to have any consoles as a kid. My parents always forbid that because I was already spending so much time on the computer. During my studies I actually didn’t do much games either because our university doesn’t really have much in that area but when I finished my Masters, my professor was just sorting out a new research group for serious games and he asked me if I wanted to be a part of it and so that’s how I ended up doing my PhD in that area. But actually looking back, I actually did do a couple of games related things in my studies anyway, even if I didn’t really think of them in that way. So we had this project where we enhanced an actual piano with augmented reality so it projected onto the keyboards and it would teach you how to play. And essentially that’s also a game, right? But we really didn’t think that way while we were making it.
J: I think that’s one of the biggest fields for gamification. That’s an avenue that they should really, take because I’ve played music my whole life and like Rocksmith, you’re familiar with it? It’s super helpful.
K: It’s really fun.
J: And it’s really fun. And I remember in high school I wasted all my time on Guitar Hero instead of playing guitar, which…if they had made a game that was really fun at that point where you plugged a guitar in I would have been playing it constantly and I would be WAY better. That’s an interesting project, I like that idea.
K: For the motivation it’s really good but it also tends to…we talked with an actual piano teacher when we were researching the project and they weren’t really happy about it because there’s a lot of people out there that think learning to play an instrument should be hard and it shouldn’t necessarily be fun, apparently, either. Yeah, it rubs people the wrong way sometimes.
J: Right, definitely. I remember studying music theory and telling people I played guitar was automatically just…”Oh, you play guitar.” There’s definitely that attitude in music but I think the idea is: piano is hard whether or not you have help. And if it motivates you even more and it makes it a little bit easier it’s not the end of the world. You’re still gonna pick up good technique while you’re playing and all that stuff, I think. It’s always on the user, right?
I was looking through some of your research and you just mentioned that you’re interested in serious games. I have a few questions about serious games and I have a few personal qualms about the use of that term, which I’m sure lots of people do. Particularly because I’m from the Arts side of it and from that side it’s like: all games are serious.
K: Everything teaches you something.
J: Yeah, exactly. All games are some form of expression or another, or they all have mechanics that at least test you somewhat. Even a walking simulator pushes you in certain ways. Is it serious in the sense of content or serious in terms of results? What are you looking at?
K: From my research?
J: Yeah, just what your opinion is personally.
K: Well, for the teaching side of things, because my colleagues and I supervise a lecture on games where it’s half computer scientists and half psychologists and they work together to create a serious game. From that side of things it’s definitely in terms of results, so you’re supposed to learn something. So you end up actually looking at whether or not people actually learned something. I mean, you learn something from every game, but you usually tend to focus more on the enjoyment and the immersion and that kind of thing rather than the learning-performance, whatever that may be. And honestly, I think serious games get a bad rep (laughs).
J: Definitely they do.
K: And they shouldn’t, necessarily, because the game development is so difficult, so complex and interdisciplinary, and when you add the serious goal to it, like an educational goal explicitly on top of that, you just make it harder because you need specialized knowledge. You need pedagogical knowledge. It’s a way bigger challenge from a CS/HCI point of view.
J: Plus you have to make it fun. It needs to at least catch people’s attention.
J: That’s mostly my issue with serious games, that there’s a bit of a disconnect between that idea of games as something you do for fun and something you would do with a serious goal in mind. I’m not against mixing the two, I think that’s brilliant. I think games do this already subliminally. But in making a serious game or targeting that serious idea sometimes they forget to make the game?
K: That is very true but I would argue that’s just not well-developed because you have these conflicting goals which makes it even more difficult.
J: I’m asking you that because I’m wondering: what would you say goes into making a serious game a game that’s well designed?
K: That’s well designed? I think part of it is finding a way to combine game mechanics that teach you something inherently and are fun. So we’ve developed a couple of serious games with our student groups back home on any number of things from Boolean algebra to how to keep things in your fridge so they don’t go bad. Anything. And a lot of the time we found that you tend to make a game and you add in little mini-games that are supposed to teach you the content. That’s not the way to do it.he learning content should be attached to the fun parts inherently. And that’s really difficult, for sure. But that’s a trap that’s easy to fall into.
J: From the art perspective, if everything is form and content, naturally if you’re coming in with a set outcome it has to be mirrored in both equally, right?
J: I took a bit of time and studied a games for health course and one of the main things I noticed was that a lot of the games were well intentioned, had good ideas, but the mechanics were so obvious. It was so obvious to the player that they were being taught something. So I think maybe immersion comes into that, and atmosphere and audio design as well. Is that what your role was in making those games? The audio side of it?
K: Well, we were supervising the students. We were teaching them from the ground up: this is Unity! Play around with it, learn how to make a game at all. For a lot of students this was the first game they ever made too, so audio design didn’t necessarily feature as a main component unfortunately. That’s honestly often the case.
J: That’s an interesting point. So, I’m curious what media informatics is and how it would relate to serious games.
K: Well, media informatics actually depends on the university that you’re from. It’s a term in Germany where you’re studying computer science but with a focus on media, so there’s a little bit more in terms of how to design things and UI interface design, that kind of thing. It depends on the university, though; some call themselves media informatics and they have barely any computer science and others that have a way bigger focus on media. Others like my university are basically just computer science but with a slightly more specialized view in media aspects.
J: And is that the perspective that you’re bringing when you’re doing research here and elsewhere?
K: The media side? Well I switched away from media computer science to regular computer science when I was in my Masters, actually. Although that wasn’t necessarily because…I liked the media informatics stuff but as a woman in computer science you tend to be looked at in terms of: “Oh, you just do funtent and graphical user interfaces and that kind of thing.”
J: Right, you’re not “rigorous” enough and all that bullshit.
K: Right, which is stupid because I did technical computer science and I even did courses and tutorials in that stuff and I enjoyed that stuff a lot, actually. But when I was going to a job fair at the university then people would just be like: “Oh, we’re not actually looking for people for graphical user interfaces right now,” and I’d be like, “That’s not what I want to do anyway.” (laughs) So I switched in my Masters and then you also get to take a non-CS minor, like an elective kind of thing. Which I ended up doing in economics and hated, but at least now I know that’s not my field.
J: Now you know! I mean, I could have told anybody personally that economics is…(laughs). I have lots of friends who took economics, it’s important work. But it’s not as interesting to me as games. And I’m sure that’s how you feel.
K: That wasn’t an option then, there were no games then in our university.
J: I had the same experience in the Arts. This is the first place where I could actually talk about them for an extended period of time. I would write one essay and the teacher would say: “Okay, just send me all the information about the game, I’m not going to play it.” And I’d be like: “Yeah, I still want to talk about these things but I don’t feel like it’s—”
J: It’s definitely not appreciated. I mean, when you present your results, typically, people are more interested. At first it seems to be like: “Oh, you work in games…” but that’s not important.
K: I actually think that’s part of the reason serious games got started at my university, because for funding purposes it’s a lot easier to convince people that games have value if you tell them, “It’s for EDUCATION, that’s the reason why we’re doing it.” Especially in the older generation that didn’t grow up necessarily playing video games, I think there’s a stigma to it.
J: Certainly there is. “How can games be serious?” is the question that always comes up, and that’s part of why I asked you, because I know how games can be serious but how do you move that as a product when people hear the word “games” and automatically associate it with children and stuff like that? What kind of games would you be making if you could? If you were in the serious games realm. I’m just curious what you meant by serious games personally. Educational with a goal but, do you have an example?
K: Well, personally I want to refresh my Chinese skills so I might go into that area. But personally I tend to play games for relaxation. I tried memorize or duolingo, but I do that for a month and then I stop (laughs). I don’t know, gaming for me is about relaxation, about stress relief. About not dealing with the rest of the world for a bit.
K: So I tend to gravitate towards games like Stardew Valley, for instance, which I find very, very relaxing, and I just finished writing a workshop paper on the role of gaming and how it affects well-being. Not necessarily in a clinical sense but in a personal well-being and preventative stress relief measure. And the role of audio in that, of course, in my opinion.
J: What do you think audio has to do with that?
K: With well-being? So I can actually talk a lot about this if you want, so stop me at some point if you want!
J: Please, please.
K: Music has a very long history of being linked to well-being and being linked to pain relief in the clinical setting as well. This is not just music making. Drumming has been used to combat stress, to combat post-traumatic syndromes, and be an outlet for negative feelings for soldiers returning from combat, for instance. It’s been used for social development among teens. But even just passively listening to music can already reduce stress and people do tend to do that on their own anyways. So in their everyday life people listen to music to relax, to avoid stress and recover from stress. And that has been used in therapeutic sessions as well. And we know that gameplay itself can also be therapeutic and can also improve well-being, can increase relaxation, reduce stress and that sort of thing. I want to look at how audio in games is a part of that. That is, I think, a very, very interesting thing that hasn’t been looked at in much detail so far.
J: Does that well-being fall into the realm of affect and affect studies?
K: Absolutely, yeah.
J: Okay, because I’m not familiar with that field. The field of affect from a philosophical standpoint is…how would you say…it’s Greek to me. I don’t understand it. I mean, I understand the idea of affect but can you break down the relationship between audio and affect a little bit more?
K: Okay, so affect is basically emotional state, essentially, usually measured in terms of arousal and valence — so positive, negative, and calm versus strongly arousing/evoking. Active, I guess. And the reason why audio is very interesting in that, in my opinion, is because audio is already very closely linked to emotional responses. It even activates the same regions in your brain that control emotional responses, so it has a very, very close relationship.
Games are really interesting in that they can evoke very strong feelings sometimes, depending on a lot of elements inside that game. So it can be the narrative or the storytelling that evokes certain emotions. There are games that actively try to evoke nostalgia even and manage to do that. And there are of course games that induce fear. My project here at the University of Waterloo and at the Games Institute was looking at a VR horror/adventure game and we were also creating a game that we will start the study for soon, where we are trying to actively scare people and see what elements go into that.
J: Brilliant. I’m a big fan of horror movies and horror games and I’ve kind of always been interested in the way that they set traps. And audio is always such an integral part of that. I remember a friend played Dead Space for the first time and I had been recommending it and I was like: “Wear headphones, you have to wear headphones. Have a good pair of headphones and just play it!” And finally he did and he was like: “Man, I heard so many sounds. I just got lost, I played for 12 hours yesterday.” It really sucks you in and I’m wearing a shirt (for those that can’t see it) of a game called Hotline Miami and the way that this game works is it almost induces an Eighties-fuelled synesthesia where you’re feeling everything. Every time you successfully pull off a maneuver the screen flashes just a little bit in your periphery, and at the same time it’s got this really beat-driven, fast-paced, hard-hitting music. It’s a very particular style of music. And the way that it paints everything is very interesting.
I guess, if you were to look at any of those genres, how would you borrow from them for a serious game?
K: For a serious game?
J: Yeah, do you want to scare people?
K: I haven’t come across many games that scare people that also have an explicit educational goal attached to them, though I think that would be interesting as a challenge absolutely. That’s also one of the reasons why audio research often looks at horror games, actually, because the fear and anxiety emotions are fairly easy to elicit and measure. So I think fear, startlement, anxiety, and frustration are the easiest things to measure. Which is unfortunate for all the study participants (laughs).
J: Yeah, you’ll have to get ethics clearance first, I think.
K: Yeah, which is always fun. But I can’t think of anything where that’s been used in an educational context.
J: What I mean when I say using strategies from something like a horror game…horror games are almost always laying traps. The pacing and so on. There’s revelation, eventually, but you have to work your way through it. And following that formal pattern of trapping, pulling someone in, and then over time, maybe not scaring them for a serious purpose but using those methods, those means. Almost playing with the audience to teach them a lesson is… I think it’s actually an avenue of great potential.
K: It is. It actually hasn’t been researched in that great of detail yet. There’s a lot of open questions in that area still. That’s one of the reasons why we chose to look at horror games — how to design a jump scare. Because it’s actually not that well understood at the moment. I mean, people do it in the industry, of course. And they build that on years of experience and trying it out. But there’s no formalized, empirical way of researching it and finding those answers in a formal way yet.
J: So when you try and experiment with these different forms like horror and audio design, are you using biofeedback stuff? Anything like that?
K: We’re going to, yeah. For the study that we ran while I was here we didn’t use physiological feedback. We did two studies, one where we used a semi-structured interview approach to see how people reacted to the horror game in the PC version versus the VR version to see what the effect of virtual reality as a medium actually was. And then we looked at different audio dimensions. It’s been used in different ways in the literature but I’m talking about whether you have sound effects and narration or if you add onto that ambient noises or if you add onto that background music. And how that affected the certain play experience components which we measured through questionnaires. But for the game that we’re actually designing for ourselves, we do want to look at the jump scares. And for that we do want to look at physiological responses like heart rate and galvanic skin response and that kind of thing.
J: This just occurred to me: we didn’t even mention we were going to talk about this but I’m curious about what you think about the relationship between VR and good sound design in that sense. Have you had any desire to mess around with VR?
K: Oh yeah, the game that we’re making ourselves, I’ve been working on that. Me and one of the students who were implementing that game. And I’ve been trying to move certain UI elements into the sound aspects just because to decrease motion sickness, honestly. I have issues with that myself anyways, so if there’s any way to tell people, like attaching text to a screen that is overlaid in the VR headset…that tends to get me nauseous fairly quickly.
J: It’s pretty bad.
K: So I’m trying to communicate simple things just through sound effects alone. But actually, what we’ve found in the study where we compared PC and VR is that, honestly, sound in VR is less important. So what is more important in VR is the sensory experience, the visual experience. The players were more focused on the exploration of the environment and less so on the game progression, actually. This might also be a novelty effect because a lot of the players had never been in VR before but this might dissipate over longer terms of play but for now, because most people right now don’t have much experience with VR, the visual things are actually more important in VR at the moment. And I do mean that audio’s not NOT important. So, particularly for feedback and supporting gameplay and supporting feedback for player actions it’s still absolutely very important but things like background music were not even registered at all. It was there, and afterwards we would ask them, “What did you think of the background music?” And they would be like, “Wait, there was background music?” They didn’t even notice.
J: Wow, that’s super fascinating. Are these people playing in a room by themselves?
K: (Shakes head no) It was here in the Immerse Lab, here at the Games Institute.
J: Oh, okay. Yeah, because that room is really great and when I played VR for the first time I think I just stood around and shot arrows for two and a half hours.
K: In the lab?
J: Yeah, and I didn’t notice that my arms were tired. It really takes everything over in terms of the visual. And standing on the edge of the mountain looking down, you freak out a little bit. So the visual cues are definitely really strong. Did you put headphones on?
K: Yeah, yeah.
J: That’s so interesting that it was not registering as much. So it’s almost like a sensory overload but one sense in particular?
K: I do think that part of it is also…because there weren’t that many games around that exist in both VR and non-VR and have all these different audio types that you can then just turn on and off. But the game that we used was ported from PC and it still had the gamepad-based movement. Which is really interesting in terms of motion sickness because that does cause some issues. People who tend to have this motion sickness, that might also increase the effect where there’s another sense that’s competing with the visual and the auditory in terms of attention, I guess.
J: We should just start burning some lavender candles in the Immersion Lab. (Laughs)
K: I’m not sure how much that will help. Because I was running all these studies and there are so many ways to react to motion sickness, I saw so many different reactions.
J: Yeah, because I played for a few hours. I wear glasses, people who wear glasses have to take them off usually.
K: Not necessarily, did you try the HTC Vive?
J: I did try the Vive and wore my glasses for a while, but they were pushing in.
K: Yeah, it’s uncomfortable for a while.
J: It’s the discomfort more than anything and the discomfort was distracting from the experience. And my eyes are fine without them, but then I realized about an hour later that I had made a grave error (laughs). I couldn’t walk a little while without feeling terrible. Do you find that’s a pretty common response to VR?
K: Oh yeah, with the gamepad-based thing we only let them play for ten minutes and for a lot that was already enough. So, I actually wrote a blog post about this. The Superhot VR thing is perfect for VR. I’ve met one person so far that’s played it and didn’t feel okay even after half an hour, or so, of playing.
J: Why do you think that is?
K: It’s just perfectly suited for VR. There’s no forced movement at all. So the game that we used was The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, a great game. But it even starts with the player being moved along the train tracks so the camera moves you but you’re standing still so that already is the first touch with the world. It’s super easy to get sick like that. And there are stone piles, and a lot of players would walk directly over it so the camera goes above but you’re standing still. So that, for a lot of people, caused a lot of discomfort.
J: Right. Because whether people believe this or not, if they’ve seen VR, when you’re standing on the edge of something and it’s a big fall down, your body thinks you’re going to fall. It’s quite persuasive.
J: So I guess we’ll do a bit of a change of direction so I’m not keeping you forever, we’re almost at thirty minutes and this has been great. I’m wondering…what has been your experience studying at Waterloo and the Games Institute in particular. You’ve mentioned some differences in the way that the PhD is structured. How would you describe your time here and would you recommend other people come?
K: Well, I honestly loved it here. It was a bit odd in the beginning because back home it’s quite hierarchical and it’s more homogenous in that all my colleagues have a CS background. They’re all either CS or HCI and a lot of them aren’t actually games-focused at all. They play in their own time, for example, but they don’t actually research that. So coming here was kind of…everyone is interested in games. Everyone you can just walk up to and talk about games. Everyone researches games in some way or another and everyone has the strangest background, which I love. So there’s people that do fine arts, there’s people who do UX design, there’s English majors, Narrative theory people.
J: Narratologists, I guess?
K: I guess! (Laughs) I’ve learned some terms I’ve never heard before. Like, what is discourse? Because you guys throw that word around a lot (laughs).
J: Yeah, we talk about it all the time.
K: Exactly, and that’s one of the first things that I learned. And I think that kind of vocabulary is really important, just because there’s so many different things about games and games are so very, very multi-disciplinary so there’s a lot in every single different discipline that can be brought to the table but we don’t necessarily have the tools to discuss it because everyone has their own vocabulary for it.
J: Jargon is a big problem. So if I come and talk to someone from CS I’m not going to have any…I’m an English student. I wouldn’t have any clue if you were talking in-depth about a particular topic. It gets a lot harder to talk about. And part of that is on me, if I want to actually engage in dialogue I should be paying attention to that stuff. But it seems like this space is particularly suited for that because there’s research groups. I’m part of a research group on generative games and we’re making board games using humans as pieces, just playing around with language and ideas and turning them into games. Basically we’re making machines for creating poetry but using humans. So you find all these ridiculous things that everyone’s playing around with, there’s people who have designed games. And there’s a big international presence that is just invaluable and that’s actually part of why we’re doing the interviews with people from other countries. In the future we’re going to talk with someone from Russia who is an indie game designer and he does everything himself, and he learns everything that he knows from jams. And so there’s so many different perspectives.
Did you find that there was a difference in the way that professionalism was approached? I’m mostly curious now because I studied in the UK for a year and I found it quite a bit more serious. It was serious in terms of you should be dressing nice, teachers demand a certain amount of respect, whereas here you kind of just get to walk around and meet people and they’re all curious. Because games are new as a field of research in a lot of ways. Did you really pick up on that here?
K: I mentioned the hierarchy thing from back home. You wouldn’t really walk up to a professor and just be like: “Hey, how are you doing?” That doesn’t happen in Germany.
J: “Wanna play some Smash Bros.?”
K: Yeah, that wouldn’t happen. Absolutely. I love that here. You can just talk to people here, there’s not as much of a social hierarchy kind of thing. That also means that you are just as likely to talk to, I don’t know, a biology undergrad as you are to a professor. Have them all sit together and go grab a beer afterwards. And that is certainly very, very valuable. I do think that… this doesn’t really go with the professionalism thing but the school system here takes people by the hand a bit more.
J: A bit? (laughs)
K: It constrains their choices a lot in terms of what they’re allowed to do, what they’re allowed to study. How they approach anything, really. And while it’s great that you get to meet all these different people, what I don’t like as much about it is that I feel in Germany, I guess you’re kind of thrown to the wolves a little bit, which is also not great.
J: Oh, I think that’s healthy in a way.
K: I think it is healthy. It kind of does foster a certain type of student that is capable of just jumping in anywhere, really, in the end. I don’t know.
J: I think the attitude is different fundamentally, because if you throw people to the wolves there’s a chance of failure. And that chance of failure can make people better, but it can also…we like games. So difficult games, you get better at them if you stick with it, but it can also push people away. Yeah, I was curious because I assumed there was a different philosophy behind the way that these programs are structured.
J: Okay, I think this will be the last question. So how do you think that we, as students or academics in the field of game studies, should approach the interdisciplinary demands that video games make? Like you have to be skilled. There was a game that came out a couple years ago called Axiom Verge and it’s like a Metroid game. And the guy made it over the course of ten years by himself. All of it by himself. And that is so not a good business model. The game is amazing in all sorts of different ways, it’s very interesting and a lovingly made game. I like those games. We both like Fez for example.
K: Oh yeah.
J: Lovingly made with a small team. But there seems to be, in those games, a rejection of the fact that everybody should be involved. It’s interdisciplinary. It requires so many different ways of thinking to even get a game started. Whereas before people always thought that you just needed to know how to do computer stuff.
J: What do you think the future of this field is? And how do we approach it?
K: I honestly think that the Games Institute has the right approach there, because they just throw a bunch of people in a general area and see what comes out (laughs). Because I honestly think the main issue is just communication. Talking to enough people from different backgrounds and seeing what they have to offer and finding that common vocabulary to talk about things. I mean, just by virtue of being in academia and being in games, we’re all curious people. We’re all people that are interested in games and enjoy games from whatever perspective we come to it with. Be that playing it yourself or be that you want to see what happens when you frustrate or scare people. Whatever you like or what fascinates you about games. There’s so many valuable things in all of the disciplines. I think if there’s more communication between them, that will just benefit everyone.
J: I think also, from the humanities side, there’s definitely a real effort to qualify games as something like art. But that argument never holds water, because you have to work with everybody and PROVE it. Games like Mass Effect are kind of novel, because they hire writers for dialogue and some studios don’t do this at all. But when you’re working with people from the English perspective, for example, and you talk to them about affect and audio design and it’s not from the perspective of, “I feel this way when I play the game.” It really shows us how far you could take that thought and how you could see it from so many different perspectives. I think it’s quite invaluable to experiment with other people.
I guess I’ll end this with a question. What are you playing lately? Are you playing anything? I know you’re busy.
K: I am. I actually finished my deadlines, so now I’m playing again. Before that it was kind of rare to play, unfortunately. But I’m playing a lot of Stardew Valley. It’s just really relaxing and it’s another one of those games that was made by one person, actually. Which is insane because that game is beautiful, and the audio design is great. Yeah, I’m in love with that game. It’s great. I’ve also been playing a little bit of Rocket League and I’m really bad at it, but I’m enjoying it nonetheless. And I really like Superhot VR, which I highly recommend.
J: Superhot VR, I’m going to go try it.
K: You should!
J: Oh, and Rocket League. I could talk for another hour about Rocket League. But yeah, okay. I think that’s enough! Thanks everybody!